Available translations: English
καλῶς μοι δοκοῦντι τοὶ περὶ τὰ μαθήματα διαγνώμεναι, καὶ οὐδὲν ἄτοπον ὀρθῶς αὐτούς, οἷά ἐντι, περὶ ἑκάστων φρονέειν· περὶ γὰρ τᾶς τῶν ὅλων φύσιος καλῶς διαγνόντες ἔμελλον καὶ περὶ τῶν κατὰ μέρος, οἷά ἐντι, καλῶς ὀψεῖσθαι. περί τε δὴ τᾶς τῶν ἄστρων ταχυτᾶτος καὶ ἐπιτολᾶν καὶ δυσίων παρέδωκαν ἄμμιν σαφῆ διάγνωσιν καὶ περὶ γαμετρίας καὶ ἀριθμῶν καὶ σφαιρικᾶς καὶ οὐχ ἥκιστα περὶ μωσικᾶς. ταῦτα γὰρ τὰ μαθήματα δοκοῦντι ἦμεν ἀδελφεά· περὶ γὰρ ἀδελφεὰ τὰ τοῦ ὄντος πρώτιστα δύο εἴδεα τὰν ἀναστροφὰν ἔχει. πρᾶτον μὲν οὖν ἐσκέψαντο, ὅτι οὐ δυνατόν ἐστιν ἦμεν ψόφον μὴ γενηθείσας πληγᾶς τινων ποτ’ ἄλλαλα. πλαγὰν δὲ ἔφαν γίνεσθαι, ὅκκα τὰ φερόμενα ἀπαντιάξαντα ἀλλάλοις συμπέτηι· τὰ μὲν οὖν ἀντίαν φορὰν φερόμενα ἀπαντιάζοντα αὐτὰ αὐτοῖς συγχαλᾶντα, 〈τὰ〉 δ’ ὁμοίως φερόμενα, μὴ ἴσωι δὲ τάχει, περικαταλαμβανόμενα παρὰ τῶν ἐπιφερομένων τυπτόμενα ποιεῖν ψόφον. πολλοὺς μὲν δὴ αὐτῶν οὐκ εἶναι ἁμῶν τᾶι φύσει οἵους τε γινώσκεσθαι, τοὺς μὲν διὰ τὰν ἀσθένειαν τᾶς πλαγᾶς, τοὺς δὲ καὶ διὰ τὸ μᾶκος τᾶς ἀφ’ ἀμῶν ἀποστάσιος, τινὰς δὲ καὶ διὰ τὰν ὑπερβολὰν τοῦ μεγέθεος· οὐ γὰρ παραδύεσθαι ἐς τὰν ἀκοὰν ἁμῖν τὼς μεγάλως τῶν ψόφων, ὥσπερ οὐδ’ ἐς τὰ σύστομα τῶν τευχέων, ὅκκα πολύ τις ἐγχέηι, οὐδὲν ἐγχεῖται. τὰ μὲν οὖν ποτιπίπτοντα ποτὶ τὰν αἴσθησιν ἃ μὲν ἀπὸ τᾶν πλαγᾶν ταχὺ παραγίνεται καὶ 〈ἰσχυρῶς〉, ὀξέα φαίνεται, τὰ δὲ βραδέως καὶ ἀσθενῶς, βαρέα δοκοῦντι ἦμεν. αἰ γάρ τις ῥάβδον λαβὼν κινοῖ νωθρῶς τε καὶ ἀσθενέως, τᾶι πλαγᾶι βαρὺν ποιήσει τὸν ψόφον· αἰ δὲ κα ταχύ τε καὶ ἰσχυρῶς, ὀξύν. οὐ μόνον δέ κα τούτωι γνοίημεν, ἀλλὰ καὶ ὅκκα ἄμμες ἢ λέγοντες ἢ ἀείδοντες χρήιζομές τι μέγα φθέγξασθαι καὶ ὀξύ, σφοδρῶι τῶι πνεύματι φθεγγόμενοι * * * ἔτι δὲ καὶ τοῦτο συμβαίνει ὥσπερ ἐπὶ βελῶν· τὰ μὲν ἰσχυρῶς ἀφιέμενα πρόσω φέρεται, τὰ δὲ ἀσθενέως, ἐγγύς. τοῖς γὰρ ἰσχυρῶς φερομένοις μᾶλλον ὑπακούει ὁ ἀήρ· τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέως, ἧσσον. τωὐτὸ δὴ καὶ ταῖς φωναῖς συμβήσεται· τᾶι μὲν ὑπὸ [τῶ] ἰσχυρῶ τῶ πνεύματος φερομέναι μεγάλαι τε ἦμεν καὶ ὀξέαι, τᾶι δὲ ὑπὸ ἀσθενέος μικκᾶι τε καὶ βαρέαι. ἀλλὰ μὰν καὶ τούτωι γά κα ἴδοιμες ἰσχυροτάτωι σαμείωι, ὅτι τῶ αὐτῶ φθεγξαμένω μέγα μὲν πόρσωθέν κ’ ἀκούσαιμες· μικκὸν δέ, οὐδὲ ἐγγύθεν. ἀλλὰ μὰν καὶ ἔν γα τοῖς αὐλοῖς τὸ ἐκ τῶ στόματος φερόμενον πνεῦμα ἐς μὲν τὰ ἐγγὺς τῶ στόματος τρυπήματα ἐμπῖπτον διὰ τὰν ἰσχὺν τὰν σφοδρὰν ὀξύτερον ἆχον ἀφίησιν, ἐς δὲ τὰ πόρσω, βαρύτερον· ὥστε δῆλον ὅτι ἁ ταχέα κίνησις ὀξὺν ποιεῖ, ἁ δὲ βραδέα βαρὺν τὸν ἆχον. ἀλλὰ μὰν καὶ τοῖς ῥόμβοις τοῖς ἐν ταῖς τελεταῖς κινουμένοις τὸ αὐτὸ συμβαίνει· ἁσυχᾶι μὲν κινούμενοι βαρὺν ἀφιέντι ἆχον, ἰσχυρῶς δὲ, ὀξύν. ἀλλὰ μὰν καὶ ὅ γα κάλαμος, αἴ κά τις αὐτῶ τὸ κάτω μέρος ἀποφράξας ἐμφυσῆι, ἀφήσει 〈βαρέαν〉 τινὰ ἁμῖν φωνάν· αἰ δέ κα ἐς τὸ ἥμισυ ἢ ὁπόστον 〈ὦν〉 μέρος αὐτῶ, ὀξὺ φθεγξεῖται· τὸ γὰρ αὐτὸ πνεῦμα διὰ μὲν τῶ μακρῶ τόπω ἀσθενὲς ἐκφέρεται, διὰ δὲ τῶ μείονος σφοδρόν. εἰπὼν δὲ καὶ ἄλλα περὶ τοῦ διαστηματικὴν εἶναι τὴν τῆς φωνῆς κίνησιν συγκεφαλαιοῦται τὸν λόγον ὡς· ὅτι μὲν δὴ τοὶ ὀξεῖς φθόγγοι τάχιον κινέονται, οἱ δὲ βαρεῖς βράδιον, φανερὸν ἁμῖν ἐκ πολλῶν γέγονεν.
The mathematicians (τοὶ περὶ τὰ μαθήματα) seem to me to have arrived at correct conclusions, and it is not therefore surprising that they have a true conception of the nature of each individual thing: for, having reached such correct conclusions regarding the nature of the universe, they were bound to see in its true light the nature of particular things as well. Thus they have handed down to us clear knowledge about the speed of the stars, their risings and settings, and about geometry, arithmetic, and sphaeric, and last, not least, about music; for these μαθήματα seem to be sisters.
for the first two kinds of being are indistinguishable.
First they have seen that it was not possible that there should be any noise, unless there was a shock of one body against another; they said there is a shock, when moving bodies meet and strike each other. The bodies moved in the air in opposite direction and those that are moved with unequal swiftness, — in the same direction, — the first, when overtaken, make a noise, because struck. Many of these noises are not susceptible of being perceived by our organs; some because of the slightness of the shock, the others because of their too great distance from us, some even because of the very excess of their intensity; for noises too great do not enter into our ears, as one cannot introduce anything into jars with too narrow an opening when one pours in too much at a time.
Of the sounds that fall within the range of our senses, some, — those that come quickly from the bodies struck, — seem shrill; those that arrive slowly and feebly, seem of low pitch. In fact, when one agitates some object slowly and feebly, the shock produces a low pitch; if the waving is done quickly, and with energy, the sound is shrill. That is not the only proof of the fact; which we can prove when we speak or sing; when we wish to speak loud and high, we use a great force of breath. So also something thrown; if you throw them hard, they go far; if you throw them without energy, they fall near, for they air yields more to bodies moved with much force, than to those thrown with little. This phenomenon is also reproduced in the sound of the voice; for the sounds produced by an energetic breath are shrill, while those produced by a feeble breath are weak and low pitch.
This same observation can be seen in the force of a signal given from any place; if you pronounce it loud, it can be heard far; if you pronounce the same signal low, we do not hear it even from near. So also in flutes, the breath emitted by the mouth and which presents itself to the holes nearest the mouthpiece, produces a shriller sound, because the impulsive force is greater; further, they are of lower pitch. It is therefore evident that the swiftness of the movement produces shrillness, and slowness, lower pitch. The same thing is seen in the magic tops which are spun in the mysteries; those that move slowly produce a low pitch, while those that move quickly with force make a shrill noise. Let us yet adduce the reeds. If you close the lower opening, and blow into it, it will produce a certain sound; and if you stop it in the centre, or in the front, the sound will be shrill. For the same breath traversing a long space weakens, while traversing a shorter, it remains of the same power. After having developed his opinion that the movement of the voice is measured by the intervals, he resumes his discussion, saying, that the shrill sounds are the result of a swifter movement, the lower sounds, of a slower movement, this is a fact which numerous experiments demonstrate clearly.
Thomas L. Heath; Kenneth Sylvan Guthrie · A History of Greek Mathematics I (1921), p. 11; Pythagorean Library (1920), pp. 37–39How this fragment survives
- Porphyry
Commentary on Ptolemy’s Harmonics · p. 236
Citation in the source record
Porphyr. in Ptolem. Harm. p. 236
Check the source record ↗Passage correspondence
Compared Greek content and named quotation witness against the expected inventory and later candidate; reviewed full-text differences, not merely equal numbers or first-line similarity.
Citation in a linked historical source record.
These are source citations recorded for this reading or its linked historical source unit. They do not describe the complete manuscript transmission. A supporting record may include a longer passage or a different editorial text.
Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 2nd edition, volume I (Berlin: Weidmann, 1906), p. 258; historical running original-language text, excluding the critical apparatus.
Open the historical edition ↗
Notes & source
Opening mathematical paragraph: Thomas L. Heath, A History of Greek Mathematics I (1921), p. 11, PDF p. 33; it supplies the astronomy clause omitted in Guthrie’s abbreviated opening. Following sentence and acoustics: Guthrie fragments 14–15, printed pp. 37–39. Both published wordings are retained verbatim; they are not fused into a newly authored translation
Porphyry/Nicomachus/Iamblichus bibliographical introduction is not reproduced with this reading. The displayed primary quotation runs from καλῶς μοι to the concluding φανερὸν ἁμῖν statement, including Porphyry’s concluding carrier
Guthrie’s source has no equivalent of the supplied word βαρέαν (“low”) before the reed’s first sound; this editorial supplement is removed from the parallel text. His printed “they air” and the phrase “indistinguishable” are retained
The supplied ἰσχυρῶς after ταχὺ παραγίνεται is likewise absent from Guthrie’s translation and is not included in this paired reading
Existing human translation retained verbatim; historical original-language passage covers the same translated quotation.
The complete quotation was checked against Diels’s 1906 edition, pp. 258–261, alongside the Open Greek and Latin transcription of the 1922 edition. It retains the 1906 forms ἄμμιν, αἴσθησιν, μικκᾶι/μικκόν, ταχέα κίνησις, βραδέα and ἁσυχᾶι, and the supplements καὶ〈ἰσχυρῶς〉 and 〈βαρέαν〉. Transcription errors and broken words have been corrected. The historical translation is retained. Untranslated introductory context is not reproduced here.
Supplementary context has not been verified throughout against an identified historical edition. The translated paired reading remains available.
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 2nd edition, volume I (Berlin: Weidmann, 1906), p. 258; historical running original-language text, excluding the critical apparatus. View original source ↗
English: Thomas L. Heath; Kenneth Sylvan Guthrie · A History of Greek Mathematics I (1921), p. 11; Pythagorean Library (1920), pp. 37–39 Published translation ↗
Original edition: Historical printed original-language edition in the public domain; digital transcription: Open Greek and Latin, First1KGreek, CC BY-SA 4.0. Excerpted and normalized as documented. · Licence terms ↗