The Presocratic Reader

Thrasymachus

DK 85

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Original textTranslation
DK 85 B 2

Available translations: English

ΥΠΕΡ ΛΑΡΙΣΑΙΩΝ CLEM. Strom VI 16 [II 435, 16 St.] καὶ μὴν ἐν Τηλέφωι εἰπόντος Εὐριπίδου ‘Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάροις δουλεύσομεν;‘ [fr. 719 N. 2 ] Θ. ἐν τῶι ὑπὲρ Λαρισαίων λέγει· ‘ Ἀρχελάωι δουλεύσομεν Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρωι;‘

And Euripides having said in Telephus: — “Shall we Greeks be slaves to Barbarians?”— Thrasymachus, in the oration for the Larissæans, says: “Shall we be slaves to Archelaus—Greeks to a Barbarian?”

William Wilson · Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume II (1885)
How this fragment survives

These are source citations recorded for this reading or its linked historical source unit. They do not describe the complete manuscript transmission. A supporting record may include a longer passage or a different editorial text.

Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 2, p. 280
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

Published passage: Clement,StromataVI2.16

Same ancient passage and substantive scope; historical wording/variant differences, if any, are explicitly recorded in notes.

Clement Stromata VI 16. Split word and spacing corrected; historical quotation and heading verified.

Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 2, p. 280 View original source ↗

English: William Wilson · Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume II (1885) Published translation ↗

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

English translation: Public domain · Licence terms ↗

Available translations & credits
DK 85 B 4

Available translations: English

Θ. δ’ ὁ Χαλκηδόνιος ἔν τινι τῶν προοιμίων τὸν Τιμοκρέοντά φησιν ὡς μέγαν βασιλέα ἀφικόμενον καὶ ξενιζόμενον παρ’ αὐτῶι πολλὰ ἐμφορεῖσθαι. πυθομένου δὲ τοῦ βασιλέως ὅ τι ἀπὸ τούτων ἐργάζοιτο εἶπε Περσῶν ἀναριθμήτους συγκόψειν. καὶ τῆι ὑστεραίαι πολλοὺς καθ’ ἕνα νικήσας μετὰ τοῦτο ἐχειρονόμησε. πυνθανομένου δὲ τὴν πρόφασιν ὑπολείπεσθαι ἔφη τοσαύτας, εἰ προσίοι τις, πληγάς.

And Thrasymachus of Chalcedon, in one his Prefaces, says that Timocreon came to the great king of Persia, and being entertained by him, did eat an immense quantity of food; and when the king asked him, What he would do on the strength of it? he said that he would beat a great many Persians; and the next day, having vanquished a great many, one after another, taking them one by one, after this, he beat the air with his hands; and when they asked him what he wanted, he said that he had all those blows left in him if any one was inclined to come on.

C. D. Yonge · The Deipnosophists, or Banquet of the Learned, of Athenæus, volume 2 (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1854)
How this fragment survives

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading.

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading in the reviewed records. The linked edition remains available below.

Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 4, p. 281
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

Exact historical English excerpt, checked against the corresponding Greek quotation. Complete report of Thrasymachus’s Timocreon anecdote. Yonge’s printed “in one his Prefaces” is retained

Published passage: Athenaeus X.416a–b, p. 655

Same ancient passage and substantive scope; historical wording/variant differences, if any, are explicitly recorded in notes.

Athenaeus X 416a, anecdote about Timocreon; complete Greek passage matches the printed source.

The supplementary Eulogikon compilation is not reproduced here because its complete text has not been checked against the cited historical edition. Later cross-references, editorial apparatus and Antiphon reconstructions have not been treated as part of Diels’s historical text. The paired ancient text has been checked separately.

Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 4, p. 281 View original source ↗

English: C. D. Yonge · The Deipnosophists, or Banquet of the Learned, of Athenæus, volume 2 (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1854) Published translation ↗

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

English translation: Public domain

Available translations & credits

  • English · C. D. Yonge. The Deipnosophists, or Banquet of the Learned, of Athenæus, volume 2 (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1854). Default reading. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Translation: Public domain

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

DK 85 B 5

Available translations: English · French

ἐγκεχειρήκασιν δὲ ἐπ’ ὀλίγον περὶ αὐτῆς εἰπεῖν τινες, οἷον Θ. ἐν τοῖς Ἐλέοις.

But only very slight attempts to deal with them have been made and by a few people, as by Thrasymachus in his "Appeals to Pity."

W. Rhys Roberts · Aristotle, Rhetoric (1924), III.1, 1404a13
How this fragment survives

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading.

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading in the reviewed records. The linked edition remains available below.

Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 5, p. 281
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

Roberts’s published wording is reproduced verbatim. The quoted clause is paired with its corresponding ancient text; the full reference apparatus is not reproduced with this reading

The phrase “deal with them” refers to the principles of delivery, discussed immediately before this sentence in Aristotle

Same ancient passage and substantive scope; historical wording/variant differences, if any, are explicitly recorded in notes.

Aristotle Rhetoric III 1, 1404a 13. Editorial explanatory gloss τῆς ὑποκριτικῆς omitted from the ancient text; the reference of αὐτῆς is unchanged.

The supplementary Eulogikon compilation is not reproduced here because its complete text has not been checked against the cited historical edition. Later cross-references, editorial apparatus and Antiphon reconstructions have not been treated as part of Diels’s historical text. The paired ancient text has been checked separately.

Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 5, p. 281 View original source ↗

English: W. Rhys Roberts · Aristotle, Rhetoric (1924), III.1, 1404a13 Published translation ↗

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

English translation: Public domain

Available translations & credits

  • English · W. Rhys Roberts. Aristotle, Rhetoric (1924), III.1, 1404a13. Default reading. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Translation: Public domain

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

  • French · Charles-Émile Ruelle (1833–1912). Aristote, Poétique et Rhétorique, traduction Charles-Émile Ruelle, Garnier, 1922. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Translation: Public domain

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

DK 85 B 6

Available translations: English · Spanish

τῶν γε μὴν οἰκτρογόων ἐπὶ γῆρας καὶ πενίαν ἑλκομένων λόγων κεκρατηκέναι τέχνηι μοι φαίνεται τὸ τοῦ Χαλκηδονίου σθένος. ὀργίσαι τε αὖ πολλοὺς ἅμα δεινὸς ἁνὴρ γέγονε καὶ πάλιν ὠργισμένοις ἐπάιδων κηλεῖν, ὡς ἔφη· διαβάλλειν τε καὶ ἀπολύσασθαι διαβολὰς ὅθεν δὴ κράτιστος.

for the 'sorrows of a poor old man,' or any other pathetic case, no one is better than the Chalcedonian giant; he can put a whole company of people into a passion and out of one again by his mighty magic, and is first-rate at inventing or disposing of any sort of calumny on any grounds or none.

Benjamin Jowett · Plato, The Dialogues of Plato, translated by B. Jowett, third edition revised and corrected, vol. I (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1892), p. 476
How this fragment survives

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading.

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading in the reviewed records. The linked edition remains available below.

Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 6, p. 281
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

The exact clause corresponding to the retained Greek. The initial lower-case “for” is retained from Jowett’s continuous sentence; the preceding comment on Protagoras and following remark on recapitulation lie outside the Greek quotation.

The wording was checked against the dated 1892 third edition, p. 476; the Project Gutenberg transcription is also linked. Print line breaks and quotation-mark typography are normalized.

Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 6, p. 281 View original source ↗

English: Benjamin Jowett · Plato, The Dialogues of Plato, translated by B. Jowett, third edition revised and corrected, vol. I (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1892), p. 476 Published translation ↗

Source pages: 1 · 2

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

English translation: Public domain (identified historical translation; existing contributor and edition rights profile).

Available translations & credits

  • English · Benjamin Jowett. Plato, The Dialogues of Plato, translated by B. Jowett, third edition revised and corrected, vol. I (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1892), p. 476. Default reading. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Source pages: 1 · 2

    Translation: Public domain (identified historical translation; existing contributor and edition rights profile).

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

  • Spanish · Patricio de Azcárate. Obras completas de Platón, tomo II (Madrid: Medina y Navarro, 1871), Fedro, pp.327–328; 267c. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Translation: Public domain

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

DK 85 B 6a

Available translations: English

φημὶ γὰρ ἐγὼ εἶναι τὸ δίκαιον οὐκ ἄλλο τι ἢ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον.

I proclaim that justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger.

Benjamin Jowett · The Dialogues of Plato, third edition (1892)
How this fragment survives

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading.

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading in the reviewed records. The linked edition remains available below.

Original-text edition
John Burnet, Platonis Opera, vol. IV (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905), Republic I 338c; Perseus transcription tlg 0059.tlg 030.perseus-grc 2
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

Published passage: Plato, Republic 338c

Same ancient passage and substantive scope; historical wording/variant differences, if any, are explicitly recorded in notes.

Directly checked against the identified Burnet 1905 TEI source. Restores γὰρ omitted by the old excerpt and adopts Burnet’s συμφέρον rather than ξυμφέρον; the existing Jowett translation states the same complete sentence.

John Burnet, Platonis Opera, vol. IV (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905), Republic I 338c; Perseus transcription tlg 0059.tlg 030.perseus-grc 2 View original source ↗

English: Benjamin Jowett · The Dialogues of Plato, third edition (1892) Published translation ↗

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

English translation: Public domain · Licence terms ↗

Available translations & credits
DK 85 B 7

Available translations: English

δεῖ καθάπερ ὑπόθεσιν μελετῶντα συγκριτικὴν τοὺς Ἀριστοτέλους Τόπους ἢ τοὺς Θρασυμάχου Ὑπερβάλλοντας ἔχειν προχείρους οὐδὲν τῶν χρησίμων διαπραττόμενον, ἀλλὰ τὴν κενὴν δόξαν ἐκ τῆς ἀγορᾶς καὶ τῶν θεάτρων εἰς τὰ συμπόσια μετάγοντα.

and, like those that make declamations consisting of comparisons, he must have Aristotle's τόποι and Thrasymachus's ὑπεϱβάλλοντες (books that furnish him with heads of argument) at his fingers' end; and all this to no good purpose or profitable effect, but to bring vanity from the bar and the theatre into our feasts and entertainments

Several hands; revised by W. W. Goodwin · Plutarch’s Morals, vol. III (1878), Table Talk I.2.3, 616d
How this fragment survives

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading.

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading in the reviewed records. The linked edition remains available below.

Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 7, p. 281
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

The selected English clause has exactly the boundaries of the DK quotation; its continuation concerns additional claims and is not included. No English words have been rewritten

The historical translation leaves the two book titles in Greek and adds its own explanatory parenthesis. These features are preserved

Same ancient passage and substantive scope; historical wording/variant differences, if any, are explicitly recorded in notes.

Plutarch Quaestiones convivales I 2.3, 616d. Greek checked; editorial Aristotle book/chapter pointer omitted.

The supplementary Eulogikon compilation is not reproduced here because its complete text has not been checked against the cited historical edition. Later cross-references, editorial apparatus and Antiphon reconstructions have not been treated as part of Diels’s historical text. The paired ancient text has been checked separately.

Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 7, p. 281 View original source ↗

English: Several hands; revised by W. W. Goodwin · Plutarch’s Morals, vol. III (1878), Table Talk I.2.3, 616d Published translation ↗

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

English translation: Public domain (historical published translation).

Available translations & credits

  • English · Several hands; revised by W. W. Goodwin. Plutarch’s Morals, vol. III (1878), Table Talk I.2.3, 616d. Default reading. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Translation: Public domain (historical published translation).

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

DK 85 B 8

Available translations: German

οἱ θεοὶ οὐχ ὁρῶσι τὰ ἀνθρώπινα· οὐ γὰρ ἂν τὸ μέγιστον τῶν ἐν ἀνθρώποις ἀγαθῶν παρεῖδον τὴν δικαιοσύνην· ὁρῶμεν γὰρ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ταύτῃ μὴ χρωμένους.

Die Götter sehen die menschlichen Dinge nicht an. Sonst hätten sie nicht das höchste der menschlichen Güter übersehen, die Gerechtigkeit. Denn wir sehen, daß die Menschen auf sie keine Rücksicht nehmen

German · Heinrich Gomperz · Sophistik und Rhetorik (Leipzig and Berlin: B. G. Teubner, 1912)
How this fragment survives

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading.

A source citation has not yet been identified for this reading in the reviewed records. The linked edition remains available below.

Original-text edition
Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 8, p. 282
Open the historical edition ↗

Notes & source

Same ancient passage and substantive scope; historical wording/variant differences, if any, are explicitly recorded in notes.

Hermias, In Platonis Phaedrum p. 239.21 (Couvreur), quoted by Diels. Greek matches; iota-subscript in ταύτῃ corresponds to Diels’s ταύτηι.

The supplementary Eulogikon compilation is not reproduced here because its complete text has not been checked against the cited historical edition. Later cross-references, editorial apparatus and Antiphon reconstructions have not been treated as part of Diels’s historical text. The paired ancient text has been checked separately.

Hermann Diels, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 4th edition, vol. II (Berlin: Weidmann, 1922), reprinting the third edition with addenda, chapter 78 (Thrasymachus), B 8, p. 282 View original source ↗

Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

The direct quotation is reproduced; Gomperz’s speculative interpretation of Thrasymachus immediately after it is not included

German · Heinrich Gomperz · Sophistik und Rhetorik (Leipzig and Berlin: B. G. Teubner, 1912) Published translation ↗

Public domain: Heinrich Gomperz (1873–1942), translation published in 1912; expired under life-plus-70 and US publication terms.

Available translations & credits

  • German · Heinrich Gomperz. Sophistik und Rhetorik (Leipzig and Berlin: B. G. Teubner, 1912). Default reading. Published translation ↗ Paired original ↗

    Translation: Public domain: Heinrich Gomperz (1873–1942), translation published in 1912; expired under life-plus-70 and US publication terms.

    Original edition: Historical original edition: public domain under the recorded term review.

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